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Re: Joseki libraries (was: Re: computer-go: About Viking)




I think of Joseki as distilled useful knowledge that hundreds of pros have collected over
several centuries. Even if I had a program of pro strength, I don't think I could expect
that program to find joseki moves consistently, since I don't think that pro-strength
players could find such moves from first principles. It's hard enough to make a
program of amateur Dan strength. Denying it access to centuries of accumulated
knowledge seems foolish :)

Of course your program should be prepared for any move played against it, so it should have
lots of general opening knowledge as well. A joseki library should not be used blindly, or instead
of general opening knowledge.

It seems like if you are a purist, and don't want to add explicit joseki knowledge to your program, you
should also refuse to add any pattern knowledge for move generation :) After all, Joseki moves
are just one more set of patterns.

-David

At 03:53 PM 1/14/2001 -0800, you wrote:
magnus.persson@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx wrote:

And there is no joseki-library. The idea is that the program should be prepared for any move you play against it. A joseki-library is the last thing I will implement in my program - that is: never since there
Thanks for the information on Viking. I am wondering how many other programs adopt this approach of no joseki library.

Interestingly, a related topic came up in the book on computer checkers I am reading now. The checkers expert on the project was resisting building a stronger opening library (yes, I guess checkers has openings), since it would, he claimed, reduce the program to a mere database lookup, etc. etc. The author was in favor of a better library because it would, um, make the program stronger.

Anyway, I can easily imagine the myriad difficulties in getting a joseki library to work in a go program, but still all in all isn't this a relatively easy way to make a program stronger? Even if the program is smart enough to figure out the right joseki move "on its own" (i.e., without reference to a book), having the information available in the form of a library should be able to chop huge pieces out of the search space and let the program spend its time analyzing more interesting parts of the game tree. But what's more, in most cases the program would _not_ be able to figure out the right line on its own -- even in the game of checkers, a game who knows how many orders of magnitude less complex than go, a computer searching ahead 30 moves would still miss lines that were correctly documented in opening books authored by humans.
--
Bob Myers <rtm@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
David Fotland