RE: computer-go: Scoring Program

[Sai To Wang <saitowang_go@xxxxxxxxx>]

    > -----Mensaje original-----
    > De: owner-computer-go@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
    > [mailto:owner-computer-go@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]En
      nombre de Wiesiek Grygo
    > Enviado el: Viernes, 06 de Julio de 2001 11:52 
      a.m.
    > Para: computer-go@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
    > Asunto: computer-go: Scoring Program
    > 
    > 
    > 
    > 1. My Idea of Scoring Program (SP)
    > 
    > That program can score game with any rules you 
      like.
    > 
    > You have two programs A and B.
    > They play game to two pass.
    > 
    > You get game record (SGF file) and use SP to 
      determine game result.
    > 
    > SP don't play, it score finished game.
    > 
To make a program that can score accurately in all
stage of the game is almost a synonym of having a dan
level program. How can you think it is easy?

    > 
    > 2. Japanese rules and SP
    > For SP finished game is when all dame are 
      filled, exception: seki.
What you mean? Japanese Go rule do not require that
you fill dame.

    > It's important for easy finding seki.
What you mean?

    > 
    > If game is not finished or dame is not filled 
      both programs lose.
If you want the program fill all dame, you are using
Chinese scoring rule. And, how you define a “finished
game”?

    > 
    > We check for every group if it can be kiled if 
      oponent play first.
You are omitting that such checking algorithm do NOT
exist.

    > Live group which touch dame is group in seki.
You still need to accurately determine which group are
living in the first place.

    > 
    > For any live group (which isn't in seki) we 
      remove dead stones from inside
    > and count teritory inside.
    > Most dificult is checking if group can be 
      killed.
    > But this isn't harder then playing go.
You are supposing that we can have a scoring program
that play much better than the playing program?
Because the difficulty of real live scoring is the
same of the actual game play, is mandatory that the
arbiter is much more stronger than both player or at
least the same level for high dan player (in a
handicapped game the white side dictates the outcome).
In game play bye two 9p, still there are some
situation that need arbiter to make a judgment.

    > 
    > I think that is posible write program which in  
      99.9% or even 100%  games
    > give corect score.
This is quite an optimism.

    > 
    > If we can do this for Japanese rules, we can 
      do this for any rules.
    > 
    > I think about SP as independ program witch is 
      used to scoring games.
    > I read on this list that GnuGo was used as SP.
    > 
    > SP can be used as in games between computer-
      human and human-human.
    > 
    > 
    > 3. Playing to the bitter end
    > I think it's very boring.
    > 
    > And don't help program which is bad in "Live 
      and Death".
    > This don't help program which don't understand  

      seki.
Neither with a SP
    > 
    > I don't like play to the bitter end.
A computer program will not complain.

    > 
    > 
    > 4. Rules
    > Turnament Director or sponsor selects used 
      rules.
    > Was anyone turnament with Tromp/Taylor rules  
      used?
    > I don't think.
In a computer only tournament, human is always
involved in the final scoring, that’s what we want to
avoid (one of the reason for why we are discussing).  

    > 
    > People play go with rules: Japanese, Chinese, 
      GOE, IGS-Japanese
    > I think that programs should play with this 
      rules.
Is meaningful only for commercial program in this
stage, when all program plays very weak. 

    > 
    > Many programs play on IGS.
    > 
    > 
    > 5. Scoring
    > If you don't like scoring game then don't do 
      this.
    > You can play GoMuku or Atari Go :-)
    > 
    > 
    > 6. Atari Go
    > In Atari Go goal is kill some stones.
    > Eg. White must kill 15 and Black must kill 20.
    > Who is first is winer.
    > This variant is for lerning children Go.
    > This is realy simple!
    > 
    > 
    > Wiesiek Grygo
    >

Sai To

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