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[computer-go] the scaling chess <==> go
At 12:17 7-12-2003 +0100, you wrote:
>At 18:27 4-12-2003 +0100, Jerome Abela wrote:
>>On Thu, Dec 04, 2003 at 04:58:40PM +0000, Nick Wedd wrote:
>>> >Even though my chess level is comparable to 2nd dan professional in chess
>>> >though, the only real advantage i might have at a 9x9 go board, is
that it
>>> >has just 64 squares which i am used to.
>>>
>>> How do you compare chess levels with go ratings? Can you give the Elo
>>> number corresponding to amateur 1-dan? or the go grade corresponding to
>>> "strong club player"? As press officer of the British Go Association
>>> people sometimes ask me this, and I don't know how to give a helpful
>>> answer.
>>
>>100 Elo = 0.69 winning expectancy = 1 Go grade
>
>
>
>>But the Go scale is wider than the chess scale. Here are two
>>ways to compare both scales.
>
>Not really chess scales more. K factor = 15 and later even K=10
>in chess when getting at professional level.
>
>That means that when i play someone same rating that i can win 0.5 * k
points.
>
>So that's 5 points.
>
>Reality is that i usually play opponents lower rated so a player has to win
>most games or one will drop in rating.
>
>In go it's 2000 years older system where you can buy your 1 dan grade.
>
>>If you align on the beginners, you get the following table, which
>>only shows how the Go scale is wider than its chess counterpart,
>>but is meaningless as an equivalence table:
>>
>> Chess Go
>> Total beginner 1000 Elo 20 Kyu Total beginner
Not really, i'm currently tuning my chess engine to play 600 rated level.
That's where the average person jumps in when he just learns the rules.
In europe quickly your neighbour tells you 10 tricks and you are 400 points
stronger.
But really there are several 600 rated, especially young kids :)
The european rating system starts usually at 1100 though, because you only
can get a rating when you play at a chessclub and the lowest competitions
they do not count for a rating system!!
So the only way to get a rating when being very poor player is to join
tournaments which will take you at least a weekend (3 games a day of 2
hours a person) or a 9 round international event (of course not in the
first groups).
So here is a major difference with european rating and US rating. You get
easier a rating there, at which you start at 600 USCF rating.
Typical club player is 1300 outside europe and 1500-1700 for europe and
some russian federation states in the east.
>> Total beginner 1000 Elo 20 Kyu Total beginner
>>Typical club player 1300 Elo 15 Kyu
>>Typical club player 1600 Elo 10 Kyu Typical club player
>>Typical club player 1900 Elo 5 Kyu Typical club player
At 1900 you are usually club champion in small clubs in europe.
2000 is already the national competitions. Most boards in lowest division
national competition (3d class national league) is < 2000 rated players.
Majority of competitions are *not* national competitions. At 2000 starts
the international rating also, but that's not clubplayers.
In USA that means you are already National Master and Women get Woman
International Master when she has those TPR's in a few female events too.
2200 a woman is grandmaster (woman grandmaster = WGM)
2300+ you get FIDE master (FM)
2400+ you get international master (IM)
2500+ you're international grandmaster (IGM)
Of course to get those titles you must apply to another zillion rules.
There are world wide rated about 100 persons >= 2600.
We call that the world top100 therefore.
Inactive grandmasters fall back within a year or so to < 2600 when they
play little.
Only a handful reaches > 2700.
Some decades ago 2700+ was a rating for the world champion.
A new rule has been introduced though that the winner of a big
international event cannot lose rating. Kasparov managed to get that
through. Sincethen he managed to raise and raise his rating.
Kramnik took quite some rating away, but FIDE decided in her infinite
stupidity to not let the matches Kasparov-Kramnik count, which means
Kasparov didn't lose rating when losing his world title to Kramnik not too
long ago.
Without that mess there it would be unlikely that both Kasparov and Kramnik
are rated far above 2800.
When someone has at least a $100k in his pockets to hire kasparov for 1 day
(he wants at least $100k a day) to play a national league game and facing
the black color against some 2500-2600 GM's (who otherwise never get the
CHANCE to play the top10 of the world), Kasparov of course doesn't lose.
But not seldom it ends in a draw. White is a big advantage in well prepared
chess.
When the opponent has something like 2580-2650 that means there is a
difference on average of 200 rating points.
Roughly that is already 80% score, which Kasparov never manages to get
against such GM's.
No one doubts Kasparov is a lot stronger, but he never wins by 80% in such
competition games. This has been proven over and over again.
Kramnik is doing far better here, but his technical superior play (even
positions where most GM's say it is a dead draw he wins by fine technical
play) is only appreciated a lot by stronger chessplayers who see where he
is good at. Wins by Kasparov are a big show where any filmmaker loves to be
present at. Just the faces he shows during the game are enough to convince
even non-chessplayers that something important has happened and that his
opponent is the utmost beginner on the planet.
It is however clear that the rating system is not correct for the world
top. Players are not forced to play X games a year against lower rated and
like in all worlds just playing higher seeded players is good for your rating.
The main reason for this is that there are simply so many professional
chessplayers walking around on the planet. Thousands. And all kasparov and
kramnik in the meantime have to do is win a big event by 0.5 points
difference and they go up in rating even.
But let me assure you, the only beginner mistakes Kasparov repeatedly makes
is when he plays either deep blue, deep junior, deep fritz or some other
chessprogram.
The day after again he shows a perfect game against a human player without
a single 1500 mistake. But well, he has to win then as he will lose rating
when he loses from that human and he won't lose rating from a computer :)
The kyu/dan system in go will be probably no exception here either.
>> 2200 Elo 1 Dan
>> Intl GrandMaster 2500 Elo 6 Dan Best european players
>> World champions 2800 Elo 9 Pro World champions
>>
>>
>>Jerome.
>>
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