Oh I directly believe you when you say that Go4++ did this. The thing I don't see is how the Japanese rules could have prevented it under scenario 1 (assuming Many faces is P1 and Go4++ is P2).
Best,
Erik
David Fotland wrote:
I'm speaking from experience :) Go4++ won several games by playing this kind of
invasion. Sometimes the other program passes to gain points, and sometimes it responds, but responds
incorrectly.
It's not as easy as you think for the program being attacked to get this right.
David
At 02:14 PM 3/15/2004 +0100, you wrote:
David Fotland wrote:In any case, information about rule set can be passed via command line. And even if it is not, difference between chinese and japanese scoring is so insignificant that it hardly will influence playing style of any engine.
Rules make a huge difference. With Chinese rules there is no problem with trying
horrible invasions at the end of the game if you are behind, looking for some bug in the
opponent. With Japanese rules, these moves will lose you a lot of points. Go4++
used to do this.
Really???
Under normal circumstances the differences between Chinese and Japanese rules can be neglected during the game, i.e., a move which is bad under Japanese rules is nearly always equally bad under Chinese rules. At the end of the game the score is usually the same up to one point. Only when, at the end, one player is passing and the other is playing further this difference may grow because a pass gains a point under Japanese rules. However as long as moves are answered the difference remains equal.
Now what does this mean in practice for the following two scenarios:
1) Program 1 (P1) is ahead and passes, Program 2 (P2) tries David's horrible invasions
Chinese: Playing the horrible invasions is free but P1 may respond also for free and most likely wins anyway. If P1 is not able to defend his territory he doesn't deserve to win anyway.
Japanese: Playing the horrible invasion costs points as long as P1 passes but P1 does not have to do this since he's ahead anyway. Moreover since P2 is behind he might just as well start the horrible invasion, because he would loose anyway. Therefore in this situation Japanese rules do not prevent a program from trying the horrible invasions.
2) Program 1 (P1) is behind and passes, Program 2 (P2) tries David's horrible invasions
Chinese: P1 looses anyway so he shouldn't complain (P1 can always resign if he doesn't like to play further)
Japanese: P1 would loose if P2 was smart enough to pass. However, P2 is stupid and plays on thereby loosing points and possibly even giving a win to P1. So this scenario would actually favor P1.
From the above it seems clear that the only case where the rules matter is in situation where the game is (close to) jigo which IMO does not justify the claim that this would make a huge difference.
Best,
Erik
PS Another problem, which I do not like to discuss here, is that it is next to impossible to correctly implement the official Japanese rules. For more info see the lengthy discussions about Japanese rules on rec.games.go
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