Re: [computer-go] Moyoman, a Go playing program

[Don Dailey <drd@xxxxxxx>]

The number of lines of code  is a very minor factor and shouldn't even
be considered part of the metric of program goodness.  It shouldn't be
considered a goal to be achieved either.

IMO, it will  come down to some breakthrough(s)  that will have little
to do with code size.

- Don



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   From: "Mark Boon" <tesuji@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
   Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 15:56:38 +0200
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   Since nobody has even come close to making a 1 dan playing program, the 100
   man years and the 1 million lines of code are of course pure speculation.

   But it seems rather obvious that 4-6 man years isn't going to do it. Neither
   is it clear 50K whether would be enough. I agree 50K lines is a fair amount
   and enough to make a fairly strong Go program, but I think it's rather
   doubtful whether it will be enough to reach 1 dan. Most modern Go programs
   probably already exceed the 50K lines mark, and they're still very far from
   1 dan.

   It seems rather old fashioned to count in number of lines nowadays anyway. A
   program with hard-coded rules and/or patterns doesn't necessarily have to be
   any more complex than a program using similar patterns or rules stored in a
   database. Also, a framework to support the development can easily become
   much bigger than 50K lines of code.

   In some previous post it was saying old code is bloated. Seems rather the
   wrong way around. Although old code is often less well structured and may
   *seem* more bloated, it's clear modern software is much more bloated than
   old software. This is not necessarily a bad thing, it basically reflects the
   fact that nowadays speed of programming is more important than the
   efficiency of the code. Hardware continually gets cheaper, whereas
   programmers time has become rather expensive.

       Mark Boon


   -----Original Message-----
   From: computer-go-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
   [mailto:computer-go-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of chrilly
   Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2004 23:57
   To: computer-go
   Subject: Re: [computer-go] Moyoman, a Go playing program


   >
   >1. It will take about 100 person years, or 1 million
   >executable lines of code to get to amateur 1 Dan.
   >
   I think 4-6 man years should be sufficient for this goal. 1 full-time
   programmer, one part-time go-expert and one part-time tester and one - part
   time - project manag. The goal should be reachable in 2-3 years.
   In the computer-chess-project Hydra I have now these ressources.I think this
   is the perfect project size. In a bigger software project the productivity
   per member declines rapidly due to the communication/coordination overhead.

   Unfortunately I have found yet no sponsor who wants to invest this 4-6 man
   years. Or to put it the other way round. Fortunately I have found a potent
   sponsor for building the ultimate chess machine.

   I have worked before in 1 million lines of code projects (big
   telephone-system for Siemens). It is a nightmare. This amount can not be
   reliable handled any more. Everyone hesitates to make changes to working
   code (even if the code is bad and slow), because one can not overlook the
   consequences of changes.
   I also think this is the complete wrong way. I see no reason, why a
   Go-Programm should be longer than 50k Lines. This is already quite big to
   manage. If one needs more code, one simply has not identified the right
   concepts. Adding to much knowledge results in a lot of white noise which
   dominates in many positions the relevant features. One has also the problem
   to make this knowledge consistent. In chess there is the law of diminishing
   returns. Some basic (and usually also simple) features like e.g. mobility
   contribute most to the playing strength.

   Best Regards
   Chrilly Donninger


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