Re: [computer-go] Pattern matching - example play

["Jim O'Flaherty, Jr." <jim_oflaherty_jr@xxxxxxxxx>]

David,

I think this is a deeply insightful question.  Thank you for asking it.


Jim


--- David Weiss <dweiss51@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

> In going from 2 dan to 3 dan, one of the
> main faults which I corrected in my play was
> not answering the stronger player and taking
> gote so much.  That is, my move was the correct
> one in the local area, but I should have taken
> sente and played somewhere else.
> 
> I am wondering whether a pattern matching approach
> such as the one Frank has been discussing can
> deal with this issue, or whether it might not
> have the same problem.
> 
> --- Vlad Dumitrescu <vlad_dumitrescu@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> wrote:
> 
> > ----- Original Message ----- 
> > From: "Mark Boon" <tesujisoftware@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> > > > Isn't half a million games "an "accumulation" of
> > all previous Go knowledge
> > > > condensed into those games?
> > > Well, maybe this is the focal point of the
> > discussion. Does half a million
> > > games contain all Go knwoledge? I think it seems
> > obvious that it does not.
> > > And also not 2 million, or any other 'practical'
> > number of games. And I even
> > > question (as explained in my previous post) that
> > it contains all
> > > 'fundamental' knowledge. Defining 'fundamental' is
> > maybe not so obvious, but
> > > the pattern in my previous post is an example of
> > what I mean.
> > 
> > Mark, are you saying that a game (or a million
> > games) contains not only the
> > knowledge that is seen in what was played, but also
> > the one that is revealed in
> > what (and why) was *not* played? And the latter is
> > not easily (if at all)
> > extractable from only pattern matching.
> > 
> > Having one million games lets more of that invisible
> > knowledge sip through
> > (because there are no two identical games, so there
> > are bound to be played many
> > variations of the same position). Is it enough of it
> > sipping through? We'll see
> > that as Frank continues his hard work.
> > 
> > 
> > <sidenote>
> > I think that the reticence to accept that only the
> > moves played are enough (for
> > a pro level player) is because of games (I remember
> > seeing one of Shusaku's)
> > where apparently everything is quiet and there's no
> > fighting and one side wins
> > with 3.5 points. But the analysis shows some very
> > fierce fighting that would
> > have taken place if any one of the players would
> > have played a little more
> > aggresively.
> > 
> > Is the result of that fight stored in the peaceful
> > variant? I think not, as the
> > result might or might not give White the victory.
> > One has to analyze to see
> > that. What we can say is that White didn't have the
> > confidence to read 80 moves
> > ahead and base his play upon that reading, so he
> > choose peace.
> > 
> > This is however just a feeling we have, and I'd
> > venture to guess that this
> > feeling is stronger for stronger players, because
> > they are more "indoctrinated"
> > with the game. It may be right, or it might be
> > wrong. We will be able to tell
> > only after trying.
> > 
> > </sidenote>
> > 
> > 
> > best regards,
> > Vlad
> > 
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> >
> http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/
> > 
> 
> 
> 
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