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Re: [computer-go] ANN(s) playing a perfect game...
Jim:
Thanks for the reply and I apologize for being so slow
to respond. I too am very busy at the moment and hope
to dedicate more time to this in the New Year.
I too am really keen on the higher level breakthroughs
and really not engaged in anyway with a lot of the
discussion on the site.
I was actually completely unaware of Moyoman's
existence and was surprised by it given GNUGo.
When I get into your code, I'll get back to you with
more feedback.
As an aside, what are your aims with Go? Are you
hoping to develop something commercially or is it an
interest? If this is none of my business, feel free
to tell me to buzz off.
Regards,
Campbell
--- "Jim O'Flaherty, Jr." <jim_oflaherty_jr@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
> Campbell,
>
> You can find one part of what I am working on, the
> part I have matured
> enough to release under the GPL:
> http://sourceforge.org/projects/semiann
>
> It is my first public iteration. I did several
> private iterations. It
> is optimized for the Sun and IBM JVM JIT(HotSpot)
> compilers. If you
> have any comments on it, let me know. I have had
> other priorities come
> up that have taken me away from this project for a
> month. I hope to
> return in early January. 'Tis the season of many
> distractions.
>
> As I progress through parts and mature them for
> public consumption, I
> will release them under the GPL on sourceforge. No
> point in having
> people reinvent the low level crap, at least if they
> are working in Java
> (regardless of Diep's closed view of the world). It
> works better if
> more of us are working at higher levels on actual
> interesting problems
> as opposed to lower level optimizations. I am
> convinced the Go
> breakthrough(s) are all at way higher levels than
> the myopic discussions
> about tactics that seem to predominate discussions
> (mainly because that
> is what is more readily achievable given the strong
> influence of
> traditional Boolean methods).
>
> I will likely hop on board David Weiss's Moyoman
> once I am preparing a
> client to play in tournaments, etc.. I have no
> interest in UIs, Go comm
> protocols or any of the low level boring rote
> programming crap. I am
> very thankful David has chosen to handle all of that
> for me.
>
>
> Jim O'Flaherty
>
>
> Campbell Macdonald wrote:
>
> >Jim:
> >
> >I enjoyed your note. Do you have a site where your
> >ANN work is published? Let me know. If this is
> >proprietary, I understand.
> >
> >Thanks
> >Campbell
> >
> >
> >--- "Jim O'Flaherty, Jr."
> <jim_oflaherty_jr@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> >wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >>Imran,
> >>
> >>I am working with ANNs using GAs. What I am
> finding
> >>is there is a huge
> >>number of people who are out of synch with more
> >>modern ANN techniques,
> >>and write ANNs off out of hand. It is not unique
> to
> >>this group. There
> >>is enormous amounts of information in a number of
> >>domains. And there
> >>even more "less informed self-righteous" software
> >>developers.
> >>
> >>No one (including the uh..."geniuses" of this
> group)
> >>has the time to
> >>follow all the tangents in the many differing
> >>related fields. And no
> >>single technique I have seen discussed here is
> going
> >>to "solve the
> >>computer-go problem" such that the program based
> on
> >>their particular
> >>"uber" technique will achieve a dan level rating
> >>against similarly
> >>skilled humans, at least not consistently and
> >>long-term. If hardware
> >>speed keeps doubling, perhaps it might happen in
> 10
> >>years.
> >>
> >>I suspect a hybrid approach, which a couple people
> >>have referred to,
> >>will be what finally makes a substantial
> >>breakthrough. Given the type
> >>of dialog I see in this group, I am very
> suspicious
> >>it will come from
> >>here. I personally detect very little spirit of
> >>collaboration. And I
> >>think the hybrid is going to require that. I do
> see
> >>a member or two
> >>trying for collaboration. And most of the rest of
> >>the group is so
> >>scarcity (it's mine, it's a secret, I'm brilliant
> >>and won't share my
> >>*ultimate* partial solution with you, etc.)
> focused,
> >>it is very
> >>disappointing. It does not generate the social
> >>cohesion I think will be
> >>required for the hybrid. Still, I am getting some
> >>value from the
> >>conversation. And I am getting a good idea of the
> >>people I think I will
> >>find interesting in working with later.
> >>
> >>And as you said, it borders on trivial to get an
> ANN
> >>to perform near
> >>perfect on the simpler games. I know as I have
> done
> >>it, been on a team
> >>that has done it or dl'ed and tried it out for
> >>tic-tac-toe, connct-four,
> >>gomoku/pente and other small games. As to ANNs
> >>playing checkers, chess,
> >>Go, etc. with perfect play, HA! I suspect that
> is
> >>decades off without
> >>some parallel hardware breakthrough. And even
> then,
> >>it smacks of
> >>"trying hard" as opposed to "trying smart". And
> it
> >>will happen much
> >>sooner for checkers/draughts than for chess. And
> it
> >>will be eons after
> >>it happens for chess before it will happen for Go.
>
> >>In fact, perfect
> >>play is likely unprovable ideal for Go. I had put
> >>impossible - but with
> >>proper encoding on a future quantum computer, it
> >>might actually become
> >>achievable. Who knows?
> >>
> >>
> >>Jim O'Flaherty
> >>
> >>
> >>Imran Ghory wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>On Sat, 4 Dec 2004, John Tromp wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>Imran Ghory wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>>Nine men's morris and Connect 4 however both
> are,
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>and both can be played
> >>
> >>
> >>>>>to a very high (better than human) level by
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>neural networks.
> >>
> >>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>You mean better than the average human, right?
> >>>>To beat the best humans at Connect-4 requires
> >>>>
>
=== message truncated ===
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