RE: [computer-go] Score estimating

["David Fotland" <fotland@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

The Many Faces of Go engine does no memory allocation at all, since speed
is important.  All computation is done using single dimension arrays of
integers.  I would think that any Java implementation would be much, much
slower.

Of course, perhaps speed is not quite so important now.  The core algorithms
in
Many Faces of Go were developed for machines over 1000 times slower than we
have today.

David

> -----Original Message-----
> From: computer-go-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx 
> [mailto:computer-go-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx] On Behalf Of Yonik Seeley
> Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2004 8:14 AM
> To: computer-go
> Subject: Re: [computer-go] Score estimating
> 
> 
> The Java VM is not really much slower than C/C++, *but* the 
> Java language can end up slowing you down. Because Java lacks 
> immediate (or stack) object allocation, one is penalized for 
> abstraction.  Every object in Java must be allocated on the 
> heap, and this (object allocation & GC) is the primary place 
> where Java loses some speed.  As an example, a Rectangle 
> class with two Point objects will be slightly slower in Java 
> than a Rectangle class with 4 integer coordinates. In C++, 
> the two classes should have the same performance.
> 
> If you are doing purely numerical computation (almost no 
> objects being allocated), then Java is almost as fast as C++. 
>  In fact, I have some experience with the latest 1.4.2 server 
> JVMs outperforming gcc -O3 but slightly underperforming the 
> Intel and MS C++ compilers.
> 
> If one writes C++ like Java (allocating all of the objects on 
> the heap, etc), then Java will most often outperform C++.  
> IMHO, that's not a fair comparison since one wouldn't write 
> highly optimized C++ that way.
> 
> -Yonik
> 
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> > >
> > >By the way: I am working in java, if anyone wants to know.
> > >
> > I realized that several Go projects are written in Java. I am an 
> > hacker
> from
> > the computer-stone-age and have written the time critical 
> parts of my 
> > chessprograms in Assembler. Is Java not considerable slower than 
> > C/C++? Or is this not true anymore? Or does speed not matter in a 
> > Go-Programm. Is
> ease
> > of programming more important? (Although I see in this 
> respect no big 
> > difference between C(++) and Java).
> >
> > My question has nothing to do with score-estimation, but I 
> wanted to 
> > ask this already on other contributions who mentioned Java. 
> Actually 
> > the real background of this question is that I have difficulties to 
> > understand the Go-programming paradigm. Speed is everything 
> in chess 
> > and it is therefore difficult to imagine, that it should 
> not be in Go.
> >
> > There were some plans to write together with Peter Woitke 
> (GoAhead) a 
> > new Go-program. One of Peters basic requirements was: If time and/or
> processing
> > power increases, the strength of the programm increases. 
> Especially if
> time
> > goes to infinity, the playing strength does the same.
> > I had problems to understand this requirement at all because in 
> > computer-chess it is obvious. But Go programs seem to have 
> a problem 
> > to
> use
> > "infinite" time or processing power. One consequence of 
> this paradigm 
> > is: Although there are much more moves than in chess, the 
> time setting 
> > for a computer-Go game is much shorter. If there appear 
> programs who 
> > could use time wisely one would have to discuss this settings.
> >
> > Best Regards
> > Chrilly Donninger
> 
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