RE: [computer-go] Pattern Matcher

["Mark Boon" <tesuji@xxxxxxxxx>]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: computer-go-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:computer-go-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Frank de Groot
> Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2004 0:28
> To: computer-go
> Subject: Re: [computer-go] Pattern Matcher
>
>
> > Sorry Frank, but I think a pattern-matcher is not in the same class as a
> > full life-and-death program, even if it has the limitations that Wolf's
> > program seems to have.
>
> It's not really a plain pattern matcher.
> It comes with the patterns.
> I charge 1 dollarcent for a pattern, 8,388,608 patterns = 100,000 Euro.
>

Hiihii!!! Sorry, I almost fell from my chair laughing when I read this!
:-)))
Keep generating patterns I'd say. Give this man a super-computer, he'll be
richer than Bill Gates soon! Oh, wait, no need. He'll be able to afford one
himself, he just needs to generate a few more patterns.


> The resulting system is able to predict pro "Joseki" far beyond move #100:
>
> http://www.moyogo.com/popo_gomonster.htm
>
> In fact it's not Joseki any more, as long as a cluster of stones has ever
> been on the board in half a million strong games, my matcher will see it.
> This is incredibly powerful. Basically, I have solved for Go what chess
> programmers took many years to solve for Chess (huge opening libraries
> classified into relative "goodness").
>
> It contains all patterns that occur more than once per 100,000
> strong games.
> I can say "all" because I catch 8 size classes, from tiny to entire board.
>
> The whole "positional" and "strategical" aspect of computer Go is
> basically
> "solved" by this pattern system so I can dedicate myself to
> tactical search.
>
> The pattern matcher itself is a jewel but the value lies in the patterns.
> I think it's a price hard to beat, a cent for patterns like shown in the
> URL.
> Almost ALL of those 8 million patterns are patterns like that.
> Good luck typing them into your "much more suitable" pattern matcher
> system..
>
> And, like I said, harvesting 8 million patterns is not even the biggest
> deal.
> The real value (included in that 1 cent per pattern) is a lot of
> statistics.
> That 1-cent pattern comes with a frequency and a whole-board correlated
> value based on statistical analysis of half a million games.
>
> So, 100,000 USD is cheap and yes, I think it is of the same relevance and
> usefulness (probably even much more) than the GoTools source. SmartGo has
> GoTools incorporated and it is a low-ranking Go program.
> Any Go program that would incorporate my pattern expert system
> would be able
> to play along with pro-level further-then-move #100 "after-Joseki". And it
> makes the correct decision as to which moves are more relevant than others
> (it will take care of pressing issues and then return to a Joseki etc.) No
> current systems are able or will be able to do that.
>

"or will be able to do that."?!? Of a seldom arrogance, rarely seen even in
mailing-lists like these.

If you make something really good and useful, don't worry, recognition will
be yours. There's no need for such outrageous, unfounded claims. It only
demonstrates how little you know about (computer-) Go. Your program may very
well be worth over $100,000. At $100 per hour for a good developer, it only
takes 1000 hours of work on something useful to get there. And it may have
some good use in a Go program to suggest candidate moves. But only a limited
use, as I'm of the opinion that a large pattern-database, no matter how
sophisticated, doesn't contain much fundamental Go knowledge. I think it
will therefore never be better than the kyu-player who inappropriately
mimics moves because he's seen them played by a pro, but never really
understood why they're played. Without the underlying knowledge a pattern is
of limited use, and can even be counter-productive. "Any Go program that
would incorporate my pattern expert system", to quote you, will be trounced
by any of the top Go software that currently exists unless it also
incorporates a large part of the underlying knowledge that was the basis of
the pro moves in your game-database, in which case that program is centuries
ahead of everyone else already without the database. I don't claim to know
everything about computer-go, and I may be totally wrong. In fact, I'd be
happy to be proven wrong, it means I really learnt something. But you'll
have to prove it before I'll see the light. Go ahead, make a Go playing
program and see how it plays. You'll have to, because I doubt any
go-programmer is going to give you the $100.000 you want for it. Until then
I'll consider all of this just a large amount of hot air.

Oh, by the way. I agree that your pattern-matcher is probably a jewel. But
the value is not in the patterns it generates, it's in the games you feed
it. Did you know you have to pay royalties on pro games? You'd better be
careful about what you're trying to 'sell'.


_______________________________________________
computer-go mailing list
computer-go@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/