RE: [computer-go] Pattern Matcher

["Mark Boon" <tesuji@xxxxxxxxx>]

First, I didn't offer $1000 to buy a pattern-matcher. I offered a reward for
someone to show or publish something good to the general public, not to me
personally. There are a lot of people who do good things as a hobby, and it
was just meant as an encouragement, not as a payment for software or work.
I'm actually offering to give away $1000 out of my own pocket for the
general benefit, as it's a small amount for me and I'd like to stimulate the
development of computer-Go a little.

Secondly, I clearly wrote already this was not for *your* program as I
consider it a completely different kind of program. I'll disregard your
remarks about my level of the English language, as it seems to come from
someone who doesn't read.

For the rest I'm not going to waste my time on responding to your ridiculous
message. If your program is so good, then we'll all see soon enough and
there will be all credit to you. If not, well...

> -----Original Message-----
> From: computer-go-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> [mailto:computer-go-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]On Behalf Of Frank de Groot
> Sent: Sunday, November 07, 2004 10:55
> To: computer-go
> Subject: Re: [computer-go] Pattern Matcher
>
>
> > > I charge 1 dollarcent for a pattern, 8,388,608 patterns =
> 100,000 Euro.
> > >
> >
> > Hiihii!!! Sorry, I almost fell from my chair laughing when I read this!
> > :-)))
>
> But you laugh for the wrong reason (inability to understand humor).
> I would never sell my pattern system. I just explain why your "it ain't
> worth much" is ill-informed.
> When guys like you and Reiss mame hunderds of thousands of USD, both are
> well-educated and can make fortunes in any job, it means that any Go
> software system that solves a piece of the puzzle, is
> automatically worth a
> lot.
>
> You simply have not understood what my pattern system is and what it does,
> and immediately saying that it is highly inferior in usefulness to a L&D
> solver is simply naive. Both are important. I am pretty sure that
> my system
> is much more important, as my system allows to predict 20% of all
> pro moves
> in unseen games and it takes a few microseconds per move to do that.  And,
> in a few weeks to months, it will predict 40% of pro moves, when things go
> well.
>
>
> > Keep generating patterns I'd say.
>
> The nice thing about my system that it has all relevant patterns already.
> That's another reason why it is valuable.
> I discovered that there isn't much more interesting beyond 8 million
> patterns.
>
>
> > > to play along with pro-level further-then-move #100
> "after-Joseki". And
> it
> > > makes the correct decision as to which moves are more relevant than
> others
> > > (it will take care of pressing issues and then return to a
> Joseki etc.)
> No
> > > current systems are able or will be able to do that.
> > >
> >
> > "or will be able to do that."?!? Of a seldom arrogance, rarely seen even
> in
> > mailing-lists like these.
>
>
> Your jealousy has made you too quick to react. Obviously English
> is not your
> native language.
> You simply did not understand the sentence.
> I claim that current systems will not be able to do what my pattern system
> does.
> You interpret it as "future systems will not be able to do what my system
> does".
> I simply say that current systems, by their design, will never be
> able to do
> what my system does.
> I never said anything else and you interpreting it totally
> upside-down is of
> an arrogance rarely seen on mailing lists like this. It shows you have a
> very limited grasp of the English language, so limited that you
> really have
> to take great care in communicating with peers (you will easily
> offend them
> or say silly things).
>
> Let me give you some advice.
> Whenever you do not understand something, do not assume your
> proponent must
> automatically "not understand" and is "arrogant", "wrong" etc. And do not
> react with an insult. This is a typically Dutch thing to do, I am
> Dutch and
> I know all too wel how the Dutch are quick to insult. But the Dutch are
> armchair warriors, they talk big but they usually lack the staying power.
>
> I did not say that I laughed when I read your request to "send me
> the source
> of a much better pattern matcher for 1000 USD and I will throw it
> on the web
> for all to use". Because I'm a bit more polite :)
> You don't seem to understand that a top-quality pattern matcher is worth
> around 100,000 USD, as I tried to explain to you, obviously in vain.
>
> We have people like Kierulf who gave up Management-level jobs at Microsoft
> to start a Go software company, there are people investing millions in Go
> software and if you would understand the relevance of pattern
> matching in Go
> and what can be done with pattern matching in Go, you would not ridicule a
> hyperfast pattern matcher with 8 million patterns from 500,000 games.
>
>
> > use, as I'm of the opinion that a large pattern-database, no matter how
> > sophisticated, doesn't contain much fundamental Go knowledge.
>
>
> A L&D solver neither contains less Go knowledge.
> It makes it up on the spot.
>
> And your religious beliefs about what a pattern systemn can do, well,
> opinions are like ........, everbody has one.
> I explained that my system spent a hell of a lot of time correlating
> patterns, meaning it extracted Go knowledge.
> It has knowledge about the priority of those 8 million patterns. It is not
> just a matcher, it knows that pattern A is 3 times more urgent
> than Pattern
> B, etc. You can say that I am a liar but that would be rather desperate.
>
>
> > will therefore never be better than the kyu-player who inappropriately
> > mimics moves because he's seen them played by a pro,
>
> Are you suggesting that all Chess programmers should throw their opening
> books away and all the other pattern knowledge they use at all
> stages of the
> game and in all parts of their engine? Because "This only leads
> to beginner
> play"? Don't be ridiculous. Patterns are much more important in Go than in
> chess. Why on earth do you offer 1000 USD for a pattern matcher
> if you think
> it's a pretty irrelevant part?
>
> I start to believe you're just an asshole.
> I came along claiming to have a "special" pattern matcher, you checked it
> out and saw it was true, then you thought: "Let's fuck this guy
> by offering
> 1000 USD for something just as good and then I'll throw it in the public
> domain to fuck this guy up, so that his work will be in vain".
>
> Well, buddy, tough luck but you'd be hard pressed to find anyone with a
> system comparable in power to mine give it to you for 1000 USD.
> Like I said,
> there are no such systems, currently and current systems can't be
> used to do
> what I do. Just the months of 24/7 number crunching and resulting huge
> databases ensures that it is a serious endeavor and no serious Go
> researcher
> will give away his work for 1000 USD to Mr. Boon. They either
> publish or use
> it in a product.
>
> Go programmers keep on telling us on how they spent years on laboriously
> entering tens of thousands of patterns, on how they enlisted the
> help of pro
> players to do it for them, I extracted and correlated more than
> one hundred
> billion patterns (from games I paid a lot of money for BTW, GoGoD is
> *totally* useless, in fact so useless I had to exclude it from the final
> learning cycles). I kept the 8 million best from 100 billion (125
> to be more
> exact). So I don't think a cent per pattern is crazy, if I would be so
> stupid as to sell it.
>
> I discovered a few weeks ago that I get ridiculous pro-prediction (better
> than anything ever achieved) when I use my patterns as inputs in a 3-layer
> NN and add some more simple stuff, like how big the pattern is
> and at which
> move it is played, how often it occurs, the distance to the centre, the
> number of stones in it, the value of the pattern for the opponent, the
> distance from the last played move. Sometimes, almost an entire,
> never-seen
> pro game is predicted correctly (but that is rare). I am now improving the
> system by adding a 21/5-type input for the NN.
>
> You don't seem to be able to think beyond a mere matcher. Yes, a mere
> matcher is not worth more than 1000 USD.
> A matcher that comes with millions of cross-referenced patterns
> and packaged
> into a system that can be used inside a search engine or as input for a NN
> is a whole differrent ballgame. Perhaps you should read something
> about the
> current developments in computer Go.
>
>
> > understood why they're played. Without the underlying knowledge
> a pattern
> is
> > of limited use, and can even be counter-productive.
>
> You really have to read my posts if you want to comment on them.
> I explained that my system correlated all patterns.
> Meaning that when it sees a popular Joseki move, but there is a ladder
> threatened on the other side of the board, it will first do the most
> important move. My pattern system is bursting at the seams with knowledge.
> It knows the relative value of patterns. And a pattern is
> anything. "Defend
> chain in atari when there is not a longer chain in atari" is a pattern.
> "Play Tengen as long as there is not a XYZ Joseki" is a pattern. Because
> patterns arre correlated and cross-referenced and sorted into importance
> based on statical analysis.
>
> You keep saying that "without Go knowledge it's useless" and I keep saying
> that this Go knowledge is included in the "1 cent per pattern".
> By virtue of
> statistical analysis of the relative whole-board value of the patterns (I
> keep on saying it because you keep on ignoring it).
>
> When you look at the recent game on IGS "Mr. Popo vs. Gomonster"
> and you see
> that my system predicts just about EVERY MOVE up to somewhere around move
> 120, and when you realize that my system has never seen that game before,
> you can't deny that it's a little more than a simple pattern
> matcher. It is
> an expert system.
>
> It is an expert system because it actually shows you where it has
> seen those
> patterns before. In a fraction of a second. The databases needed for that
> take up 500 MB. All this stuff took ages to extract and crunch.
>
>
> > would incorporate my pattern expert system", to quote you, will be
> trounced
> > by any of the top Go software that currently exists unless it also
> > incorporates a large part of the underlying knowledge that was the basis
> of
> > the pro moves in your game-database,
>
> So what? The point is that a strong Go program will become much stronger
> with my system.
> A chain is as strong as its weakest chain.
>
>
>  in which case that program is centuries
> > ahead of everyone else already without the database. I don't
> claim to know
> > everything about computer-go, and I may be totally wrong. In
> fact, I'd be
> > happy to be proven wrong, it means I really learnt something. But you'll
> > have to prove it before I'll see the light. Go ahead, make a Go playing
> > program and see how it plays.
>
> The enormity of the work required on patterns (both in coding and number
> crunching) precludes much other work.
> But I will, in half a year hopefully, sell a study tool that used the
> pattern system. It will also suggest Go moves but only based on
> the pattern
> system and a simple neural network.
>
> > You'll have to, because I doubt any
> > go-programmer is going to give you the $100.000 you want for it. Until
> then
> > I'll consider all of this just a large amount of hot air.
>
> I don't have to do anything.
> My study/playing tool will demonstrate its worth and that 100,000
> will come
> bit by bit :)
> When it predicts 85% of the first 120 moves in a
> never-seen-before semi-pro
> game, even I as a non- go player understand that perhaps this pattern
> matcher is not a pattern matcher but a high-powered expert system :)
>
> Sorry that you are unable to handle that :)
>
> > Oh, by the way. I agree that your pattern-matcher is probably a
> jewel. But
> > the value is not in the patterns it generates, it's in the
> games you feed
> > it. Did you know you have to pay royalties on pro games?
>
> Bullshit.
> I have won a copyright suit or two in my time.
> I know more about copyright law than the average lawer does.
>
>
> > You'd better be
> > careful about what you're trying to 'sell'.
>
>
> I will sell 52,000 pro games and hundreds of thousands of 6d* and
> 7d* games
> but not in the form of SGF files.
> The SGF files are contained in an encrypted, compressed SQL
> database and you
> can play them through and search throught them, but the pattern
> database is
> something alltogether different.
>
> Your outrageous claim that you "have to pay royalties" makes you
> ridiculous.
> Game records are recordings of events and can't be copyrighted.
>
> There are some funny laws in countries like Japan where they ignore the
> Berne convention and make up their own rules, but nobody outside Japan
> cares. GoGoD for example violates Japanese copyright law (AFAIK GoGoD
> contains Japanese games).
>
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