Re: [computer-go] Pattern matching - example play

[Vincent Diepeveen <diep@xxxxxxxxx>]

At 10:12 29-11-2004 +0100, chrilly wrote:
>>
>>Sorry I meant a go program. Of course there are 100s of examples in
>>chess.
>>
>That current chess programms are better than the programmer is a triviality.
>But it is not trivial that poor playing programmers write better programms
>than very strong playing ones.
>
>I think the best combination is a relative poor playing but excellent
>programmer and a high-rated advisor. Like the combination Feng-Hsu/Joel

The average grandmaster is not capable of materializing his thoughts.

Here a good example from me analyzing with a grandmaster Jaan Ehlvest
(number 6 at the world at the time at the FIDE rating list) my game against
him after i was so lucky to draw him (my actual luck was that i played him
at 9 AM in the morning and the tournament organisation was so clever, from
my viewpoint seen, to locate him in the house of another Russian who
emigrated to this town who had of course 1 big bottle of Wodka which was
emptied by them at 5 AM); i was the only one to draw him, the remainder of
the year he won all his games. 

Diepeveen: "hmm this move is very interesting as it protects the security
of this and that detail still keeping the right color, isn't it?"

[Camera zooms in at grandmaster]

Grandmaster: "i feel this line is a draw".

Diepeveen: "what do you find from this move?"

Grandmaster: "i feel it is no good".

[Grandmaster tries other line]

Diepeveen: "aha your line is protecting your kingside as that has a higher
priority than making action at the queenside".

[Grandmaster by now awakened]

Grandmaster: "I feel i am ok"

[moving back some moves]

Diepeveen: "let's try this move because it looks dangerous"

Grandmaster: "i feel it is ok for me" 

[i still wanted to try out the line as i didn't see what would happen]

Grandmaster: "i feel it is ok now for black"

[Grandmaster wants to move back]

I heard just 2 type of sentences during our 1.5 hour analysis:
  "i feel it is ok"
  "i feel it is a draw"

So i very well understand Chrilly's point.

Everyone agrees you need to be a good programmer.

What we lately see is that the programs that get stronger now are in
general written by very strong chessplayers. At least National Master level.

Under the condition you are a good programmer, having yourself knowledge is
a HUGE advantage nowadays.

Effectively it means that Chrilly's software can only win from mine if i
have a bug in my evaluation function. Under normal conditions he loses. Of
course i still have much debugging to do before i make a 90% chance against
his software.

Chrilly really is the godfather of agressive tuning in game tree search,
which i still am busy incorporating in my program (and it is very
effectively!), though evidence is clear that i'm succeeding in that slowly.

It is a fairy tale that a weak playing programmer is a better one than a
strong playing programmer.

Really a fairy tale spreaded by weak players.

It's a huge advantage simply to have knowledge.

Of course in go for the foreseeable future the importance is less than in
chess, because life&death is a matter of a selective search more than loads
of go knowledge.

>Benjamin in case of Deep-Blue. But the advisor must be able to speak in
>computer-programming terms. I cooperated with several strong players. We
>were speaking always two different languages. The first really usufull
>advisor is GM Lutz. He has written himself at the beginning of his
>chess-career a programm. Was according to Chrilly´s law weak, but GM Lutz
>understands the inner working and logic of a program. He also knows how hard
>it is to implement involved chess-concepts. He has therefore respect for the
>programmer. Most GMs think they are very clever and the programmer is too
>stupid to understand the brilliant advices.
>
>Chrilly
>
>
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>
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