[Date Prev][Date Next][Thread Prev][Thread Next][Date Index][Thread Index]

Re: [computer-go] future KGS Computer Go Tournaments - two sections?


i agree with don a lot... this is quite tricky.
we have many versions of tlsBot that play totally different from each other - surely much more so than what differs goFigure/daftBot from GNU. we made many inner tournaments before the kgs one to see which approach to choose. but it would be so much nicer to be able to choose based on results with different bots, and not only self-games. nothing more simple than for me to say that i have this new tlsBot2, making it as a side project to the work on tlsBot... the code differs enough surely...

besides, goFigure (who as i see stands to lose the most in this discussion) has already made an offer of stepping aside from time to time to let commercial programs compete... so all in all I would prefer for the GNU-based programs to sort it out among themselves which one plays in top division which month, if in exchange we get go4++ and mfGo competing... if that is not enough to have them (commercial ones) join the fun i think it would be meaningless not to let both gnu and goFigure play at the same time.

and i like quite a lot the concept of everyone being allowed in the second division, even if they play in the top one

mike

On Mon, 9 May 2005, Don Dailey wrote:

Hi again,

Excellent idea I think.  One should be completely open and the other
open only to original authors.  Botnoid would gladly compete in both.

I have a lot of respect to the "meta-bot" programs like Sluggo, but I
am torn by the consideration of fairness.  For instance, if it were
allowed for me to have several botnoid deriviatives in a competition,
then I could greatly increase my chances of winning or placing high.

Or, if I get tired of losing I could simply place a wrapper around
gnugo, and call it my new program.  I could make some arbitrary and
simple modification if I wanted to go to the trouble of seeming fair.

With a program like Sluggo, a great deal of effort went into it and I
respect that.  And that's why I'm torn.  The other side of the coin is
that almost all of the effort had little to do with actual GO playing
knowledge and heuristics.  Although they worked hard, they never
worked for that.  I don't want to compete with n improved copies of
GnuGo unless I am allowed to put in several Botnoids (each with
experimental modifications.)

I am afraid that even this division should be completely open,
otherwise I will enter multiple Botnoids and you will probably very
shortly see gnu clones that are not actual derivatives, they will be
the real thing probably represented in some cases by non-programmers
who are smart enough to get the bot working.

- Don



  X-Original-To: computer-go@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
  Date: Mon, 9 May 2005 14:11:10 +0100
  From: Nick Wedd <nick@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  Reply-To: computer-go <computer-go@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
  Sender: computer-go-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
  X-Spam-Score: -4.9
  X-Spam-Flag: NO
  X-Scanned-By: MIMEDefang 2.42

  I would like to hear your views on something which was proposed in
  discussion during yesterday's KGS Computer Go Tournament.

  The proposal is to run future such events as two "divisions", with
  admission to the "upper" division being more tightly controlled.

  On one hand, I want to take reasonable steps to deter cheating.  I also
  want to avoid clones of GNU Go, and programs which use GNU Go code to
  select their moves.  Both require that I should know something about the
  bot, and preferably also about its creator.  Specifically, if a bot _is_
  found to be cheating, I would like to be able to name and shame the
  person responsible, and I can only do this if I know his real name.

  On the other hand, I would like the tournaments to be fun for as many
  people as possible.  I would therefore like to be able to admit
  metamachines that use GNUGo code, modified GNUGo clones, and anonymous
  entries.

  By having two divisions, I could achieve both.  The upper division would
  be restricted to what I was convinced was original code from known
  individuals.  The lower division would be open to all, or almost all.  I
  believe that there is not technical obstacle to this;  as far as KGS is
  concerned there would be two distinct but simultaneous tournaments.

  What do people think?

  Nick
  --
  Nick Wedd    nick@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
  _______________________________________________
  computer-go mailing list
  computer-go@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
  http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/

_______________________________________________
computer-go mailing list
computer-go@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/


_______________________________________________
computer-go mailing list
computer-go@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://www.computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go/