RE: [computer-go] citation

[Harry Wang <foreversoldier@xxxxxxxxx>]

> 
> I am curious why this sequence in Go is referred to
> as a "ladder" at all.  When I am playing go,
> and such a sequence is played out, it looks much
> more like a "stair" to me.  So why isn't such a
> sequence call a "stair"?  All the ladders I have
> observed don't look very much like a stair at
> all, at least to me.
> 


I agree that "stair" is a much better description for
this type of Go formation.


> What does anyone know the origination of the use of
> the word "ladder" describing this pattern in
> Go?  Is it a translation "error" from way back when
> Go first made it to an English speaking
> country and the language gap combined with an
> English anomoly caused an interesting twist to use
> the term "ladder" as opposed to "stair"?  If so,
> when did it occur, why did it persist and does
> anyone refer to it by any other name than "ladder"
> in English speaking countries?

I am almost certain it has has to do with translation.
In Chinese, some people refer this Go formation as
"Cloud Ladder". Cloud Ladder is a type of weapon used
in ancient by chinese troops.

 
my guess is a westerner just borrowed this term. your
proposal stair is a better term in my opinion. you can
start calling this "stair" and promote it. Once people
sees the reasoning, they will change. 

good day.

-harry


> 
> 
> Thank you for any etymological elaborations you can
> offer on this.
> 
> Jim O'Flaherty, Jr.
> 
> 
> --- Mark Boon <tesuji@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
> > In a sense both of you are right. John is right
> that the ladder problem is
> > theoretically pspace hard. When programming you
> can't avoid a formal
> > definition of ladders like John's, as a program
> has little use of a vague
> > definition of a 'ladder' as something that results
> in the shape of a ladder.
> > The shape is only the result of some practical
> examples of the formal
> > definition, not the other way around.
> > 
> > On the other hand, Harry is right that making a
> program that reads ladders
> > is a fairly trivial task. For practical purposes
> you can limit the ladder
> > depth (to say 70 moves, enough to cross the board
> and then some) and assume
> > that anything that exceeds that depth doesn't
> capture the stones. That way
> > you only get the wrong solution in a very, very
> small percentage of the
> > cases.
> > 
> >     Mark Boon
> > 
> > 
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: computer-go-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > [mailto:computer-go-bounces@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx]On
> Behalf Of Harry W
> > Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 5:55
> > To: drd@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx; computer-go
> > Subject: Re: [computer-go] citation
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > > What is your "more specific" definition of a
> ladder?
> > >  It's hard for me
> > > to imagine a definition more "specific" than the
> one
> > > John gave.
> > >
> > 
> > Here's a very good explanation on what a ladder
> is:
> > http://senseis.xmp.net/?Ladders
> > 
> > The whole reason when the term "ladder" is used is
> > because the shape looks like a ladder. Since
> John's
> > definition fails to mention this rudimentary fact
> make
> > his definition imprecise.
> > 
> > In fact his definition is so generalized, that it
> > includes situations such as ladders and many more
> > other situations that are not ladders. this is why
> I
> > called the difinition imprecise.
> > 
> > -harry wang
> > 
> > 
> > 
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