Re: [computer-go] 2nd KGS Computer Go Tournament

[Nick Wedd <nick@xxxxxxxxxxxxx>]

In message <200505102229.j4AMT8t9012417@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, Don Dailey 
<drd@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes
> One more thing to add.
>
> It's true that some programs haven't yet implemented the protocol and KNOW
> the stones are dead but will not clean them up.
>
> But by scoring for the program you have to make a judgement that this
> really is the case.  If you are wrong, you are rewarding the ignorant
> program and in some cases actually changing the result.  So the
> situation becomes MORE than just a scoring situation.
>
> William early talked about the separation between "playing" and
> "scoring."  There should not be a separation because if you score for the
> program, you could be changing the result.  You can't base your
> decision on the belief that a given program "should" be able to win or
> even that you "know" it can, because then you would be adjudicating
> based on your own personal judgement of a program's abilities and
> that's biased.
I have never seen a case where any judgement was involved.

In a position like this

 . . O # .    Top right corner of board
 . . O # O
 O O O O #
 # # # # #
 . . . . .

I agree that deducing the status of the two black stones would require 
judgement.  But, with Chinese rules, bots don't leave things like this 
on the board, they play them out.

I am willing to say that if I ever do find a case where judgement is 
involved, I won't try to use any, I shall instead rule (as far as the 
stones in question are concerned) in favour of the bot that does 
implement final_status_list.

Nick

> With chinese scoring, there is no good reason for trying to separate
> the scoring phase from the playing phase when it's not possible in the
> first place, and when it's so easy to do it right anyway.
>
> - Don
>
>
>
>
> >  Nick,
> >
> >  I assure you that kgs-genmove_cleanup and "final_status_list dead" are
> >  EASY to implement.
> >
> >  kgs-genmove_cleanup just means to play the game out to the bitter end.
> >
> >  final_status_list dead is really simple,  it just means "give me a list of
> >  all the stones you think are dead for both colors."
> >
> >  Believe me,  if a program is good enough to pass before killing the 
> > opponents
> >  dead stones,  it KNOWS the stones are dead and "final_status_list dead" can
> >  be implemented easily.
> >
> >  If the program DOESN'T know this, then it shouldn't be passing.  If it
> >  passes anyway and you end the game by scoring it, you are being unfair
> >  to the opponent because you very well might be aribitrarily changing
> >  the result of the game.  If the program doesn't know the stones are
> >  dead, the opponent may be able to save them.
> >
> >  In fact, you might as well stop the game even earlier,  when YOU judge
> >  the game to be decided.
> >
> >
> >  - Don
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Nick Wedd    nick@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
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